Thaumaturgy and contested Challenges!

[Happi]

Okay, once again, here it is. Thank you Mr. Adams for this.

Thaumaturgy is a tricky thing folks.

First, you cannot relent to a challenge to have a thaumaturgy effect go off. Yes there are some rituals that can affect an attacker (I think one exception is flesh of fiery touch or something like that). Most of them have to be in a contested challenge. The winner gets the desired effect. Remember, if you relent that means you are doing absolutely nothing. Also, touch required means that you enter into a challenge just to do that too. If the effects are beneficial, then the beneficiary can elect to relent to the touch.

[Ekeris Krolvo]

Hey, what i do.

[Ms Babs OOC]

Ya got Happi thinking Thaum again...demmit....

Seriously, it's not just you. Thaum is a deep and devious practice and its practitioners have been known to go to any lengths, such as being punched in the face by Brujah, to inflict that fiery contact.

[Ekeris Krolvo]

now what about hand of destruction acid touch ......you know what ill just wait for 2.1 to come out.

[schoonover]

Aug 19, 2008 0:27:56 GMT -5 Happi said:

Okay, once again, here it is. Thank you Mr. Adams for this.

Thaumaturgy is a tricky thing folks.

First, you cannot relent to a challenge to have a thaumaturgy effect go off. Yes there are some rituals that can affect an attacker (I think one exception is flesh of fiery touch or something like that). Most of them have to be in a contested challenge. The winner gets the desired effect. Remember, if you relent that means you are doing absolutely nothing. Also, touch required means that you enter into a challenge just to do that too. If the effects are beneficial, then the beneficiary can elect to relent to the touch.

Not that I disagree with you all that much here Happi, but you have some terms crossed here. A challenge can be relented to and have the effect go off if the defender so wishes. The attacker must indeed succeed in his attack for his effect to occur. And then a contested challenge is 2 seperate challenges happening simultaneously to speed things up. In example:

Thaumaturge (here forth known as Bob)
Brujah thug (here forth known as Doofus)
Toreador wanker (here forth known as Julie)

Now, Bob wants to use thaum to attack Doofus. So, Bob challenges Doofus. Traits are bid by Bob to initiate the challenge, Doofus not being as much of a Doofus as his name suggests quickly respoinds to the challenge inquiring the nature of it, so he may bid appropriately. Now, they both have bid traits Bob attacking and Doofus defending. This is a fairly standard challenge. Now to modify this challenge to be a CONTESTED challenge, Doofus instead of defending decides he has a better chance using his Potence to smash Bob in the face.

So, Bob is attacking Doofus, and Doofus is now attacking Bob in return. This is a contested challenge. Where the winner has the desired effect take place.

The first example is a standard challenge. Which if Bob were smart, he'd in subsequent rounds to give himself a better chance against Doofus' physical prowess, would choose to delay his initiative until AFTER Doofus has made his attack. Players must agree to use contested challenges, most just accept it as part and parcel of the game, it is an optional rule listed to greatly speed things up. And in most cases its better to just lose 1 challenge a round then 2. Thus contested is almost always prefered. There are few cases in which it is better to use initiative to give yourself a better chance. The most common of which is Thaum, as there is no "Win all ties" for thaum (certain things being omitted here, because there are ways).

So here in the 3rd example Bob will once again try to use thaum against Doofus, in the second round of their combat. In this round, Doofus declares first, thus Bob being a smart Tremere decides to try and "soak" the attack. Bob loses because Doofus wins all ties with Potence 5. Though failure or success is moot in matter of what Bob will do next. Bob now declares his initiative for his "everyman action" to cast magic at Doofus, Doofus having already acted is now relegated to trying to soak, or dodge the attack from Bob. Being that Bob has more mental traits than Doofus has physical, Bob now stands a chance to win. Bob has managed to light Doofus on fire.

Now this example shows that it is indeed possible to win against the Dreaded "win all ties" monster. There is however even better ways of handling thaum in which to cause tehre to be no challenge thrown on the part of the user for many paths of thaum. Which then leaves the defender throwing static challenges, and you risking no traits, only the defender. Most of these rely heavily on your ability to know what your target will do, how they will respond, and forcing them into things without them knowing they are about to get screed by it. Like, summoning a "flame wall", path of flames 3, between you and the Brujah charging you. They now must go around, and thus likely not be able to hit you, or must go through said fire, and probably must throw a roschrect check. Yes I just butchered the spelling on that.

Thaum and magic in general is the most challenging thing in the game, even more so than using influence which takes a huge effort to master. Combat magic is amazingly hard to master in a fashion that gives you an edge, not just a chance.


Now, since rituals and fiery touch were mentioned...

Flesh of Fiery Touch, the user takes an Agg to activate, and the effect is that any time you are touched the person takes an agg. This is a huge breach of the masquerade.. oh wait.. theres more wording. I don't have the exact wording, but it is un- provoked touch. That means if you shake someones hand, it does not go off. Accidental touching like bumping in a hallway also does not trigger the effect. Though outright and deliberate touching does. So if you wanna bump the person to Quell their beast, you just took an Agg. Though by that same token, if Doofus were to strike Bob and Bob relented, Doofus just took an Agg. The ritual describes no challenge involved in the activation of the effect. Thus the attack triggers the effect, and Doofus if he had fortitude could attempt to alleviate his pain.

Rituals in general while not combat applicable unless cast before hand as preparation, or specifically stating that the cast time is combat or 1 round, is outside the scope of combat. As all rituals are assumed to have a 5-10min for basics, 15-20 for int, and 20-30+ for advanced, where a cast time is not listed. Many rituals have extended casting time, such as Blood contract, 3 days. Open passage, 1 hour.

Then theres things like Burning Blade, which is assumed to be 1-2 rounds, because it only lasts for a number of rounds, thus is cast as you walk into combat.

I think thats enough on the Thaum lesson for this post.

[schoonover]

Since I forgot to mention, rituals are also cast as static challenges against the trait to activate, which unless otherwise stated in the ritual is based on the rituals level. I believe the traits are 4, 6, and 8, basic, int, and adv respectively. Thus things like Night of the Red Heart is amazingly powerful though it has a distinct disadvantage.

So, if Bob wanted to blood contract Julie, he would throw his mental traits against the ritual at 8 traits, Bob being a good Tremere has at least 10 mentals regardless of generation since thats the 13th gen cap. Wins on ties. Now, his ritual is crafted and he may freely bone Julie despite her being a Methuselah and having 8 million traits.

As far as I know there are no rituals that have a challenge directly against the target. I'm certain there has to be one somewhere, maybe more that I just don't use a lot or remember. But, the vast majority at least are all static challenges for the caster, against the rituals traits, either base for that level or otherwise listed in the ritual, VS the casters traits. Which the caster may add any and all bonus traits applied to his challenge by various means and may even retest the challenge with Occult Ability.

Though inferred by the ritual, "Recognize rituals ______" (That's as close as I can recall its name) the Thaumaturge has no idea that the ritual is success or failure upon completion, unless it has obvious and apparent signs. For the ritual extend the casting time of any ritual by 10 minutes and allows the caster the know immediately if the ritual has failed or been cast successfully. Thus if this ritual grants this, as I said it infers that the thaumaturge would have no idea that his ritual failed unless it was greatly obvious like greater conjuration, its clearly not twice the size like it should be. Or, Flesh of Fiery touch, or even flame blade. These are all obvious, things like Blood contract, or Pavis of the Foul Presence, would have no signs.

[Ekeris Krolvo]

Aug 29, 2008 16:30:06 GMT -5 schoonover said:

Since I forgot to mention, rituals are also cast as static challenges against the trait to activate, which unless otherwise stated in the ritual is based on the rituals level. I believe the traits are 4, 6, and 8, basic, int, and adv respectively. Thus things like Night of the Red Heart is amazingly powerful though it has a distinct disadvantage.

So, if Bob wanted to blood contract Julie, he would throw his mental traits against the ritual at 8 traits, Bob being a good Tremere has at least 10 mentals regardless of generation since thats the 13th gen cap. Wins on ties. Now, his ritual is crafted and he may freely bone Julie despite her being a Methuselah and having 8 million traits.

As far as I know there are no rituals that have a challenge directly against the target. I'm certain there has to be one somewhere, maybe more that I just don't use a lot or remember. But, the vast majority at least are all static challenges for the caster, against the rituals traits, either base for that level or otherwise listed in the ritual, VS the casters traits. Which the caster may add any and all bonus traits applied to his challenge by various means and may even retest the challenge with Occult Ability.

Though inferred by the ritual, "Recognize rituals ______" (That's as close as I can recall its name) the Thaumaturge has no idea that the ritual is success or failure upon completion, unless it has obvious and apparent signs. For the ritual extend the casting time of any ritual by 10 minutes and allows the caster the know immediately if the ritual has failed or been cast successfully. Thus if this ritual grants this, as I said it infers that the thaumaturge would have no idea that his ritual failed unless it was greatly obvious like greater conjuration, its clearly not twice the size like it should be. Or, Flesh of Fiery touch, or even flame blade. These are all obvious, things like Blood contract, or Pavis of the Foul Presence, would have no signs.

wow that's a lot of info what about path of blood all the tremere have to start with it and this all happened because i was unclear about the touching thing with path of blood.(i must learn more)

[schoonover]

Actually all starting on Rego Vitae is entirely a house ruling in many games. It suggests in the book that most start with it, as its the most simplistic and versatile path. And it modifies your abilities with many other non-thaum related things and even combat thaum quite nicely. Also in any game which restricts ritual purchase based on which paths you have, blood becomes even more powerful and useful.

But, strictly speaking, per the book, its not required to start with it, though even if the game does not have that house rule... any Regent with a grain of salt will require you to either start with it, or switch to getting it over any other path of thaum fairly quickly. If for no other reason than you can as a group with level 4, put a Methuselah Bloodless or near in a single round of combat. 5 people yanking blood leaves a vampire dry very quickly, even assuming only a 60% win ratio. Though the benefits of that path are most commonly and abused as level 3, and 2, and then even to a lesser extent 1. The upper levels are rather dangerous to use. Not that 1 isn't just as dangerous.

So, since we're on the subject of Path of Blood (Rego Vitae). The most abused and common levels used in actual practice, being 2 and 3. And 3 being the more used level depending. Lets cover 2 real quick, you can force someone to burn a blood for basically what ever reason, waking, healing, physical traits, useless crap, looking human. Anything really that blood can be spent for normally. Including things that aren't common or usually even listed. For the effects that aren't listed always check with your ST to see what they will allow, such as forcing blood sweats, blood tears, anal bleeding, and my personal favorite, a raging hard-on. All very useless things you can make them spend blood on, depending on the ST's ruling. Now, for 3, since 3 is the fun level. This is where you become the Incredible Hulk. You can now lower your gen for a short stint. Not only does this usually allow you to spend more blood in a round, but it raises your trait cap. Which is very important in combat. Though for non-combat type uses of this level see Dominate, which is entirely Generation based. Thus now you can actually land Dominate on people of better generation than yourself. Provided that your new temporary generation beats out your target. And you can win the challenge. Remember though that while your trait cap goes up, really only the physical category matters for that purpose as you can burn blood for traits, but can't burn for mentals.

Now, if you are particularly savvy in your uses of Blood you can really hose people with level 1, in conjunction with a very useful but not as commonly used ritual. The ritual that doesn't get enough love. Engaging the Vessel of Transference. This fancy ritual turns a capsule of some kind into a wondrous way to steal blood from a target. Which gives you a couple of important things. It gives you Vitae, which can used in many things. First, you now basically for free gain all the knowledge of the person that Path of Blood 1 gives you. And you now have something that belongs to the person in question, which is required for several rituals. Also certain rituals actually require the targets blood anyhow. So this has managed to be a very fancy ritual indeed.

Other good rituals in general, and these are some of my favorites:
--Craft Bloodstone- its basically a tracking device, only better.
--Impressive Visage- 2 bonus social traits. Because what Tremere doesn't need more social traits.
--Learning the Mind Enslumbered- I believe this gives you the last moments of someones life, I don't recall since it's been so long.
--Rite of Introduction-Most important ritual ever... Seriously, I required all my Tremere to have it when I was Regent.
--Ritual's Recognition- This is the ritual I mentioned before, about knowing if it was successful. I finally found it (=

And these are all Basics.

Other good ones, That are INT level and I won't go into detail on right now:

-Binding the beast.
-Blood Allergy
-Bone of lies, and Bone of Contention (contention might be higher level)
-Innocence of Child's Heart (this one rocks, but can SCREW you horribly)
-Power of the Pyramid- not as powerful in LARP as tabletop, but still amazing. Most Tremere who operate in a group should take this.
-Soul of the Homunculi
-The Curse Belated-Great for infiltration of other clans.
-Transubstantiation of the Seven- Big must for a regent

ADV
-Abandon the Fetters of Blood
-Blood Contract
-Dominion
-Paper Flesh
-Stone of the True Form

By no means should this be a list to go straight after, but these are all excellent rituals. And there are many that I have not noted that are simply amazing. These ones just tended to be what I've gone after. Most of these I took for purposes of killing other Vampires and getting away with it. Though really, the best way to get away with killing someone as a Tremere...

Be publicly at odds with someone. And make sure people know you want them dead. And will do anything to kill them. Get a lower member of Clan Tremere or someone who likes you or can be easily Dominated to or otherwise persuaded, to get the intended target to sign a document that basically lets them be Tremere or at least have it look like a pact to not go after each other. Then once they are inducted. Tear said document in half, and say the words "We have a Rogue Tremere" then all good Tremere underlings should immediately make it their task to go and kill said person. I did this personally while I was Regent, at least half dozen times. I then got away with it every time. Because I didn't kill them, I didn't know what happened to them, and I certainly wasn't the last seen with them. Nor did I tell anyone to go and kill them. Though I knew exactly what the implication of calling them Rogue was (death sentence) I never said the name. Nor did I ever ask questions about it after. Plus then you always have a scape goat if the underlings get caught.

Feel free to ask questions. Otherwise I'll just post random Thaum usage here as I think of it, or am in the mood to post about Tremere magics.

[schoonover]

holy crap batman. I just realized while reading back over my post to make sure I didn't F it up.. I was damned close to the name of that freakin ritual..

Though inferred by the ritual, "Recognize rituals ______" (That's as close as I can recall its name)

--Ritual's Recognition- This is the ritual I mentioned before, about knowing if it was successful. I finally found it (=

yay for me.

[Happi]

Thank you Scott. I just didn't want to go into the in depth details and You weren't disagreeing with me. you took it and fleshed it out more. Thank you.

[Ekeris Krolvo]

Koolie-o! thanks for the help. I'm rely trying to get a hold on this tremere thing and you guys are rely helping me out i don't know about any one else but you have my thanks.





MMFCL-Chris A.

[schoonover]

Tremere are unanimously one of the hardest clans to play. And in all honesty, I'd actually rank them as the hardest of them all.

They have so much stacked against them as a player. The internal structure of the clan, the widespread hatred and fear of the clan as a whole for their usually unsavory activities, all their talents are run off a single category (mental traits, all 3 disc's run off it, and most the abilities they would use do too), and the massive complexity of their magic to be used effectively.

I made a huge mistake having a Tremere be one of my first characters. Granted it didn't take me long to get the swing of things. But I did fumble around a lot. And I do mean a lot with combat as a Tremere. I spent hours trying to find ways to combat "Win all ties" monkeys. And then I stumbled onto the initiative setup within the game. Even after that, I was still left with all the other problems of playing that clan.

One of the biggest mistakes I see these days, is the "Oh, I can do that" "We can do that" "our magics can accomplish that". Tremere NEVER mention what they are or are not capable of. They always will research or look into a matter. Never will, "I can" or "I am unable to" be acceptable as responses to a Prince or really anyone asking you to do something, or if you can do something. Always, I shall look into it. Never share any secrets of the magics. None. Never. Period. There is no sharing of "Hey, my magics let me do ____". Tremere are easily the most paranoid of the clans. They hold all their secrets as closely as possible. Never divulging anything if they can help it.

They also never share any knowledge of how the clan is structured. There can be no protection of those above you if the structure is known. Much like the military in gorilla tactics will aim for leaders. The Tremere are paranoid all others will do the same to them. As well as revealing anything of the clan, weakens the clan as a whole. If knowledge exists of their capabilities, structure or really anything about the clan as a whole is known. It can be exploited to bring ruin to the clan in at least one city in the Camarilla. And that cannot be allowed.

All those playing Tremere should attempt at their best to not be evasive in their answers to other clans. But, they should always be as vague as possible. And elude to having vast resources available to you. One should always seek to bring about prosperity to the Domain they reside in, and at all costs any and all unsavory acts one commits must have a reasonable scape goat, and way to avoid any kind of repercussions.

Now, this next section while usually adhered to by Tremere, should be used by any and all who wish to be good at plotting and setting doom upon all thy enemies.

One must plan weeks and weeks in advance. You must set a course of action and plans to keep moving, that will only marginally deviate. You must ascertain what motives each member of the Domain has if possible. Then those motives must be accounted for within said plan. There are several things you can always count on when trying to set a devious plan in action.

First, people are dumb sheep. They will follow anything they believe to be true almost blindly. Even if they believe they have assured themselves it to be the actual truth, and not some facade that was placed in front of them.

Second, people will always react in the same fashion to the same stimuli. Plan ahead and find out who reacts how and to what.

Third, people will always fail to react in that same manner when it most benefits you personally.

Fourth, we return to the dumb sheep concept. Only this time, people will take 2 courses of action when forced to make a choice. The most obvious, and the most retarded. They will always choose between these two.. So in your plan, make sure both come out to be the same, or lead to the same result in the end.

Fifth, you can account for all things if you think about it long enough. And you "mock combat" through it with various things.

Sixth, you can never account for all things. There will always be some retard that comes out of the woodwork at exactly the wrong time in your plan with a giant tuna melt and slap you in the face with it. There is nothing you can do about this, save being good at altering plans on the fly. And being very good at adaptive planning. This all takes time.

Seventh, its Vampire, plan and think in decades. Its hard I know. But, try and think in terms of social standing, and pushing someone into the mud for 200 years as a way to get even for an act against you. Destruction is a very permanent solution to on going problems. But, its vastly outside the concept of the Genre.

Eighth, Again, people = dumb sheep. They will screw up your plans endlessly without knowing or even trying. When they do this. Get even. And ensure that your plans become better and better laid, so that these sheep dont screw it up as easily.

Nineth, the Coterie. Coteries while very powerful tools, are also the biggest downfall of so many aspiring power mongers. The more people you involve, the more chance you have of getting caught, or someone being a sheep. They also however, aid you in keeping the sheep in line and away from the electrical fence you are building.

And the final thing about planning... the Scape goat. You must always have someone else to blame for what happened. It matters not what can be proven. So much as what cannot be proven. If they can't prove he did it. Can they prove he did not do it. Always keep your hands as clean as possible. When directing underlings, be as vague as possible and ask them as few questions as possible about the task they just performed for you. Also this is a good time to have a coterie. Have a true coterie, and the scape goat coterie.

The scape goat always is best to come in pairs. The first is a distraction and really not a scape goat. The scape goat is only really there in case you get screwed somehow. But the first one is always to throw people a red Herring so they move into the wrong direction. As an example. Its always best when trying to proclaim praxis, to have someone else look as though they are, them get caught. And then 3 weeks later you do it. Once the "threat" has been "removed".

[Ekeris Krolvo]

Alright, blood contract. how powerful is it really do you come up with a contract or dose it have some background i don't know about.
and breaking the contract do you come up with what happens
like there eyes rot out and never be able to replace them or you die by a beer truck.Dose ST have to approve of it ?

[Finn]

Let's just say, your name is Ash Pile, most of the time.

[Ekeris Krolvo]

What about Donning the mask of shadows is that a breach and how does it work for game mechanics.